I'm also sorry for the death of my grandfather's family (he was a Jew, born in 1900, and only survived WW2 because he was maried to a Dutch woman) and al the other Jews (and Roma, Sinti, gays, and freedom fighters - undoubtly called terrorists by the opponent) during previous wars.

And I'm also sorry that I was brainwashed by western media and history books into believing that Palestinians were terrorists and Israeli's, Americans and others who condemned Palestinian attacks were the "good guys".

<<< But my question remains, if you were Israeli leadership what would you have personally done if you were in that situation? >>>

And my statement remains: the Israeli leadership has itself to blame for letting the hatred escalate until the Oct. 7 burst, and it has still not learned yet - as we see IDF violence bursting every day since.

Trying to answer your silly question: I sincerely hope that I would be as courageous and smart as the Palestinian doctors [1] and journalists who, after losing their beloved ones or immediately after being released from captivity and torture: not pick up a gun, but a stethoscope or a camera and a pen instead.

[1] https://www.newarab.com/news/gaza-doctor-returns-work-right-after-israel-torture

@s1m0n4 @benroyce @randahl @louis @thetechtutor

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The New ArabGaza doctor returns to work right after Israel tortureA doctor in Gaza speaks of his ordeal after being detained by Israeli forces in December, describing the 'hell' of the situation he suffered for weeks.

Replied in thread

**Erik van Straten** @ErikvanStraten@infosec.exchange · Jun 8, 2024

Jun 8, 2024

Erik van Straten @ErikvanStraten@infosec.exchange

@wschenk wrote: "my question was specifically if you were the Israeli leadership the day of the attack that just killed a bunch of your citizens. Your step 5 is nonsensical in that context - the leadership on both sides is what it is, and my question is what would you do given that the actual situation as it occurred had happened and you had to choose a course of action."

Nonsensical is what Israel and their fans continue to do: claim that history started on Oct. 7.

If I'm not mistaken, the bible mentions someting about "turning the other cheek" but I can imagine why that was not an option.

However, the bible also reads something like "an eye for an eye". I'm not sure whether a similar number of Palestinian casualties was reached on October 7, or some days later.

Meanwhile the Israely government has had plenty of time to *think* about what their goals are and how they try to reach them. Continuing their ethnic cleansing is thoroughly *planned*, which makes it worse than what Hamas did: the outcome of what their members did on Oct. 7 was not planned.

In the eyes of many Palestinians, the 7 Oct. attack is one in a row of *defensive* actions. Isreal is stealing their land (also on the Westbank) and severely discriminating them.

One can state that killing approx. 1150 and taking hostage another 200 (?) people on the Israeli side is too extreme to be called a "defensive action".

However, then what has killing of more than 36,000 Palestinians to do with a "defensive action"? Why is the IDF not called the IOF?

Eventually, the "IDF" may be able to kill all *current* members of Hamas or torture them to near (or actual) death in prisons without a trial, but:

• That's not justice. A *fair* trial is.

• Hamas is a *symptom*, not the problem. Most members of Hamas are people like the Ukrainians (and possibly like you and me in case *we* were attacked) who are trying to defend their land, possessions, relatives, wives and children. Some are barbaric idiots - like you can find in any population. Killing every current member of Hamas will *not* stop the violence - on the contrary.

• The "collateral damage" in Gaza (human lives and infrastructure) is unimaginable.

• Blowing up abandoned houses, bombing and shooting women, children and aid workers, cutting off supplies of clean water, food, fuel, medical aids, has nothing to do with defeating Hamas. That's why it's called genocide.

Violence, extreme types in particular, sooner or later will return to the committer like a boomerang.

@s1m0n4 @benroyce @randahl @louis @thetechtutor

Replied in thread

**Erik van Straten** @ErikvanStraten@infosec.exchange · Jun 8, 2024

Jun 8, 2024

Erik van Straten @ErikvanStraten@infosec.exchange

@wschenk wrote: "Let's hear some concrete suggestions of what you do if you were the Israeli government and Hamas attacked civilians like they did."

Read bottom-up and don't skip a single step.

5) All parties: isolate extremists and elect leaders who are willing to be fair and respect human rights and international laws.

4) Think about and understand what lead Hamas to attack civilians like they did. Who drove them to become such beasts? "The war" did not start on Oct. 7, just one example: [1].

3) Acknowledge that no part of the surface of the earth *fundamentally* belongs to a specific person or group (that surface was there long before people existed, and its habitability and resources will keep changing over time). "Ownership" of land was made up by humans. When "assigning" land to individuals or groups, fairness (non-extremism, no polarization) leads to the least violence.

2) Stop thinking that you are a better person, for whatever reason, than anyone else. Respect and treat everyone else like you want them to respect and treat you.

1) Stop thinking and arguing that a piece of land belongs to you, or "your people", because *your* religion says so and/or because *your* ancestors lived there way back when.

[1] https://www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2014/08/15/de-kinderen-speelden-arabier-en-jood-en-toen-kwa-1409547-a61141 translation by me:
<<< August 15, *2014* by Toon Beemsterboer
·
KIDS WERE PLAYING "ARAB AND JEW" AND THEN CAME THE MISSILE
·
Children in Gaza have experienced three rounds of war. Their houses have been bombed, they've lost family members and neighbors and have witnessed horrific injuries. How to help the traumatized young people? >>>

How can ANYONE be surprised that some of them turned into monsters 9 years later? Or less, because the violence (by both parties) did not stop after 2014.

How is Israel not creating new monsters every day? Are they going to murder *all* Palestinians to prevent that? And what about Lebanese people? Et cetera.

@s1m0n4 @benroyce @randahl @louis @thetechtutor

NRC · Aug 14, 2014De kinderen speelden ‘Arabier en Jood’ en toen kwam de raketBy Toon Beemsterboer

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